advanced riding course

[David.]

Following some recent discussion wrt positioning for LH bends, have had a look at both the IAM manual & the police rider's handbook.

In both cases, the correct position is towards the centre (white) line, without crossing the line.

On a none IAM or RoSPA training course, extended forward observation was encouraged, where by, a broken white line can be crossed to improve your view.

Any comments.

[k9doc]

On narrow white roads without lines you would surely take a position giving maximum visibility, appropriate speed etc, giving maximum warning of approaching hazards. This would have to involve crossing an imaginary central white line. Can't see the difference on a wider road with a broken line.

[David.]

On narrow white roads without lines you would surely take a position giving maximum visibility, appropriate speed etc, giving maximum warning of approaching hazards.
This would have to involve crossing an imaginary central white line.

I'd certainly agree with this comment wrt narrow roads without white lines & was actively encouraged to adopt a position to the RHS for a LH bend.

This would have to involve crossing an imaginary central white line. Can't see the difference on a wider road with a broken line.

If my memory serves me correct, crossing a broken white line for extended forward observation was a no no.

Perhaps anyone who is currently involved with the IAM or RoSPA could clarify the situation.
(Even the IAM manual & the police rider's handbook have been updated, things may have changed.)

[David.]

This quote is taken from Cleveland RoADAR, Information for Candidates undertaking RoADAR Advanced Motorcycle Test.

"You will be expected to use the cornering techniques described in ‘Roadcraft’, using the full width of the nearside of the road where appropriate, but you should always be prepared to sacrifice the position you take to improve your view for safety. When it comes to positioning the order of priority is SAFETY, then STABILITY then VIEW. You should not cross onto the offside of the road purely to improve your view, however, there are occasions where it may be acceptable to cross onto the offside of the road in order to improve the stability of your machine. Your observer will explain this technique in more detail."

[Casbar]

On myROSPA  test, off siding was acceptable taking into account the above, but on the IAM test, I was advised no off siding. One interesting point was my ROSPA instructor was a South Wales Traffic Police Officer, he said South Wales Police now have a minimum speed they have to be doing before they can offside, making the point you have to be shifting before if becomes necessary.

[David.]

Advanced Motorcycle Instructor demonstrating 'offsiding' on a training course, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tldoheF4M3s

"Over the year’s offsiding filtered through to civilian advanced rider training groups, unfortunately many riders were injured or killed trying to perfect the technique, so the likes of the Institute of Advanced Motorists (IAM) and the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA ) no longer sanction offsiding. However, there are still a few independent training bodies and instructors who preach offsiding as a worthwhile skill."

My experience coincides with the above, neither Cleveland IAM or Cleveland RoADAR condoned "offsiding".
I was introduced to the technique by local independent training organisations, HIOLI and Ridewell Tees Valley.
It is possible that the likes of these independent organisations exist to offer something less rigid than the IAM or RoSPA.
To that end, RTV gave a presentation to a local IAM group on what they had to offer.
From my experience, both the IAM & RoSPA offer a good grounding in roadcraft to a recognised national standard.
The likes of RTV offer & allow you to develop your skills further should you choose to do so.
Plus, some folks don't see the IAM & RoSPA as being cool & only for the bearded BMW, dayglow, pipe & slippers brigade.

[Paggers]

David,

Following our conversation yesterday I checked this with my IAM observer, who has passed the 'Master' test with IAM and an active service Police examiner. His answer was that on both the IAM and the BikeSafe course riders are actively encouraged to cross a broken while line to improve forward visibility, with the caveat "where it is safe to do so". This covers both riding to the right side of the road to get visibility around a left-hand bend and cutting corners by crossing the (broken) white line when doing so is clearly safe and provides better visibility and/or the ability to make progress (i.e. a right-left bend complex).

It's quite conceivable that this is a new development since you sat your IAM, my observer wasn't able to comment on that. As he hasn't done a RoSPA he couldn't comment on what they teach either. But I have been assured that this is not something that will result in a failure of the IAM test.

Based on your remarks above (and others) it appears that this may be inconsistent across IAM groups and police examiners. Seems a bit odd.

[beemerboy9]

I once spent an evening with a policeman talking to a RoSPA group about off-siding. At least half the audience could not grasp the essence of using the other side of the road to increase the visibility that one already has.
The typical question was, "If I can barely see round the corner at all, should I use the off-side to gain visibility?" 


I think that I would only talk about off-siding (as opposed to straight-lining using all the road, which is different) to someone who already had a Green Badge, as it is dangerous if misused.


"Death can be fatal" as someone once joked.

[David.]

I think that I would only talk about off-siding (as opposed to straight-lining using all the road, which is different) to someone who already had a Green Badge, as it is dangerous if misused.

I'd tend to agree with that, when I was first shown the technique by HIOLI, I came home and said to myself, "I'm not doing that, it's dangerous".

HIOLI folded & RTV was formed, a little more professional run by two ex-police riders. Having now done the two day course twice, I feel comfortable using this technique when appropriate.

[simbo]

I like "off siding".. it gives me a better view of what the local farmers are growing on different sides of the road Personal joke, Sorry!  :-[  I'll go back to reading my Beano now

[k9doc]

Are we allowed to use common sense and experience, what works for us and confidence or otherwise in our own abilities at all times trying to uphold the spirit of the law?

How come one group recommend one technique and one a different method which can apparently change over time. Can they all be right or should there be some flexibility in the system?

[Paggers]

I think it's a fair shout to say that it is something that should be used with caution and experience. I don't know for certain that my local IAM group would recommend it to everyone. I know my standard of riding when I started was already pretty high so perhaps they feel more comfortable with me taking on a more 'advanced' riding technique. I don't know - and I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here, just introduce the possibility that any inconsistency results from the level of comfort of observers, in their own abilities and those of the person they are 'training'. In truth I don't know. It's a technique I don't use often and I rarely go far over the line and I can see how, if it was laid out as a simple 'it's okay to do this' rule then it could lead some people with less experience into trouble.

It's like filtering. When I did my BikeSafe course, during the classroom session the question was asked about the legality. The answer from the copper leading the session was that it's legal, and perfectly acceptable, but it carries a high risk. He also suggested that if we got into an accident while filtering then, because we had decided to engage in a high risk manoeuvre, the onus may well be on us to prove that it was not our actions that had caused the accident. I would see 'offsiding' very much in the same vein. Something you do if you are confident in your own ability, and your ability to avoid trouble.