BMW R1200RT/R1250RT Forum

Don't get me wrong Noel, I'm not one of the anti rider-aids brigade - I've had ABS and Traction Control on all of my last three bikes.  Interestingly, if I had to choose between the two, I think I'd pick the traction control.  It's helped me out of nasty situations a couple of times but like I said, I've never had to use ABS in anger.


Let's be clear though, ABS definitely does not reduce braking distances - if anything it can lengthen them under certain circumstances.  What it does is stop us ham-fisted riders avoid locking the wheels so easily, so can make heavy braking safer.  I have no doubt that cornering ABS works too.  My point is that I reckon any real-world gain for the average rider, compared to standard ABS on a telelever bike is likely to be marginal at best.  On a bike with forks, I get it - although even then, I'm not convinced the benefit's that great. 


All I'm saying is that on the GS and the RT, I suspect it if it gets added at all, it's largely a marketing-driven idea.

So I come from a never use the front brake in a corner brigade, never been trained to do that. The ABS is there for the Oh Sh1t moment, which if you hard pull the front brake the bike will stand up. Yes I know Motor GP riders use the front brake in corners, and yes they also fall off. Its a safety feature, but will not make you stop in a shorter distance. As already discussed, skilled riders can stop in a shorter distance without ABS. ABS will stop you locking the front wheel, it doesn't mean you can routinely enter bends faster and then stick all brakes on. Nothing will help inexperience and good rider planning. So at the end of all that, nice to have, but wouldn't make me run out and buy a bike just because of ABS Pro  8)

Casbar wrote: So I come from a never use the front brake in a corner brigade, never been trained to do that. The ABS is there for the Oh Sh1t moment, which if you hard pull the front brake the bike will stand up. Yes I know Motor GP riders use the front brake in corners, and yes they also fall off. Its a safety feature, but will not make you stop in a shorter distance. As already discussed, skilled riders can stop in a shorter distance without ABS. ABS will stop you locking the front wheel, it doesn't mean you can routinely enter bends faster and then stick all brakes on. Nothing will help inexperience and good rider planning. So at the end of all that, nice to have, but wouldn't make me run out and buy a bike just because of ABS Pro  8)

We're on the same page - but you'd be surprised just how much you can use the front brake of an RT (or a GS) in a bend...

richardbd wrote:What it does is stop us ham-fisted riders avoid locking the wheels so easily, so can make heavy braking safer.

Yes, the safer part is all I was looking for.  So regardless of telelever or not, why not improve your odds in a heavy braking event while the bike is leaned over?  I'd happily pay for it IF, and this is the crux, it improved the picture significantly in the real world.  Not being experienced enough I don't have much of a sense of how much braking is too much when leaned over on my RT, or any other machine.  I'd love to see the comparison between manual braking and ABS Pro modulated braking in a leaned over bike going 20-25mph over the posted speed in the curve. 

Noel wrote: I'd love to see the comparison between manual braking and ABS Pro modulated braking in a leaned over bike going 20-25mph over the posted speed in the curve.

A comparison of what?

richardbd wrote:
A comparison of what?

OK I'll bite... who gets to the slowest speed during an emergency braking event while the bike is leaned over at speed, the same moto equipped w/ ABS Pro versus the same moto w/o ABS Pro, let's say w/ the average reasonably skilled rider.

Emergency braking while leaning over at speed.  Sounds like a real idiot on a blind bend. Doesn't deserve any type of high tech electronics to save him.


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RTman10 wrote: Emergency braking while leaning over at speed.  Sounds like a real idiot on a blind bend. Doesn't deserve any type of high tech electronics to save him.


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Richard, I get it you're bent on arguing for argument's sake.  If you want to debate the degree to which cornering ABS works or doesn't, I'll continue this banter but I sense you don't really have a clue, and are just bent on arguing w/ nothing but your opinion to support your position.  Peace Out

Who's upset Noel.  Me or Richard. But you really have to wonder why a system designed for a hyper sports bike has ended up on a tourer.  Its like a huge wing on the back of a 1.1 Fiesta.


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Noel wrote:
OK I'll bite... who gets to the slowest speed during an emergency braking event while the bike is leaned over at speed, the same moto equipped w/ ABS Pro versus the same moto w/o ABS Pro, let's say w/ the average reasonably skilled rider.

But ABS Pro will stop the wheels locking, it has nothing to do with stopping in a shorter distance. Guess you don't really understand what ABS does. When BME are marketing ABS Pro, do they say, you can go into a bend at any speed and then jam everything on and all will be good! Like I said earlier, if you go into a bend too fast apart from being an idiot, they outcome is in the lap of the gods, ABS Pro or not.

Noel wrote:
OK I'll bite... who gets to the slowest speed during an emergency braking event while the bike is leaned over at speed, the same moto equipped w/ ABS Pro versus the same moto w/o ABS Pro, let's say w/ the average reasonably skilled rider.

Actually Noel, I think you're attributing RTMan's provocative comments to me but I do like a debate - especially when it's about the relative merits of devices that may or may not keep us all safer.


For what it's worth, I think your suggested test would be genuinely interesting.  I still maintain that in many circumstances ABS of any variety will not shorten braking distances but lengthen them and I think that you'll find most official descriptions will agree with me.  ABS is intended to allow the driver or rider maintain control better during emergency braking.  It is absolutely, certainly, definitely, 100% NOT (and never was) designed to shorten braking distances.  In many circumstances, the quickest way to stop any vehicle is to lock the wheels, thus increasing the friction.  That's why off-road schools teach you how to skid a bike to a stand-still.  The trouble is that in a road situation, locking the wheels is likely to have other consequences.


That's why it would be an interesting test...

Me provocative. Don't even know what it means.  I was once following a 1200RS which went into a corner too fast, jumped a small ditch and ended up in a field still upright. The field has a slight slope to it.  The hedge at the bottom eventually stopped him which was a very long way from the road.  It was the only time he could ever remember the ABS activating.


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RTman10 wrote: Me provocative. Don't even know what it means.  I was once following a 1200RS which went into a corner too fast, jumped a small ditch and ended up in a field still upright. The field has a slight slope to it.  The hedge at the bottom eventually stopped him which was a very long way from the road.  It was the only time he could ever remember the ABS activating.


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If he finished upright, he must have had cornering ABS...


:)) :))

A intriguing evaluation method of cornering ABS--seems like about as good as it gets for trying to explore its limits:


MO Tested: Cornering ABS - Motorcycle.com
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[size=15px]“Had I not found a career testing motorcycles,” Duke opines, “I could imagine myself being one of those know-it-all riders who scoff on multiple forums and social-media platforms at modern electronic rider aids, claiming that expert riders like myself could do a better job feeling out available grip with carefully trained fingers than a Bosch computer could. And I’d be very wrong. Not only could I not outperform C-ABS under ideal conditions, in an unexpected panic situation such as occurs on public roads, I’d be on the ground wincing from another broken clavicle.”[/size]
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[size=15px]Of note, he also mentions he was surprised w/ how much front brake he could grab before the outriggers saved him on the test bike so equipped.  Perhaps telelever enhances that even more, or not, depending on all the other differences involved in the two platforms.[/size]

Noel wrote: A intriguing evaluation method of cornering ABS--seems like about as good as it gets for trying to explore its limits:


MO Tested: Cornering ABS - Motorcycle.com

[/font][/size]
“Had I not found a career testing motorcycles,” Duke opines, “I could imagine myself being one of those know-it-all riders who scoff on multiple forums and social-media platforms at modern electronic rider aids, claiming that expert riders like myself could do a better job feeling out available grip with carefully trained fingers than a Bosch computer could. And I’d be very wrong. Not only could I not outperform C-ABS under ideal conditions, in an unexpected panic situation such as occurs on public roads, I’d be on the ground wincing from another broken clavicle.”[/font][/size]


Of note, he also mentions he was surprised w/ how much front brake he could grab before the outriggers saved him on the test bike so equipped.  Perhaps telelever enhances that even more, or not, depending on all the other differences involved in the two platforms.

Ok - one last post on this and then I'm done...


1.  I've never scoffed at modern electronic rider aids - exactly the opposite, I've said I'm all in favour.


2.  I've never questioned what C-ABS might do.


3.  I have said that I suspect that it offers little that a telelever bike doesn't already have - it stops the bike from standing up.


4.  Last time I checked, there were no tele lever equipped KTMs, 1190 or otherwise, so what's the point of quoting this article?


5.  I have never questioned C-ABS efficacy, just whether or not it shortened braking distances.


6.  Not even the disciple who wrote the quoted article suggested it shortened his braking distances.  He just said it stopped the front wheel from locking and made the bike less likely to stand up.


7.  I think that's what I said several days ago...